E-Cards, Rhymes or Nasty Grams!

Ask a child - say a 6 year old - if they wanted to live for 100 years. Would they get bored? Most children just can't imagine it - they can encompass those years or what they'll do.

Teenager are bored by everything. They feel that their parents' lives are extremely boring. They never want to be "old".

Many of the people who I work with are looking forward to retirement. When I ask them what they'll do with their time - they say they don't know. They just can't imagine years on end without working.

What is my point? We just aren't made to comprehend 10^infinite years.

What about talking to other people? There have been around 15 billion people living in the world in all of history. That is a lot of people to visit with. Not to mention that more are born every minute.

Will I get bored? Perhaps - but I'm willing to try and find out. Remember that life after death would not be the same as live here.

I think eternal life would be great. Im not trying to find things wrong with it, to create issues to support disbelief.

Frankly, if "Heaven" is all it is said to be, Great.

However, since you are going on the presumption of heaven, then you must presume hell. And if that presumption is correct, can you imagine eternity there?

I just watched "Solaris." Have you seen it? I think it explores this question of heaven among other questions of Heaven (or afterlife of some kind).

Heaven is totally illogical given our eathly understanding of things. But then, like Jay pointed out, there are obviously things beyond our comprehension. Heaven, if it exists, is clearly one of them. I can't imagine a place where I'd be gleeful at the same time as say.. my grandfather. So does that mean he and I would go to different heavens? What if I wanted him in MY heaven? Then what?..

@ Miss N

If you believe in Heaven, then you have some Biblical reference. Heaven is a reward, but you dont control what it is.

All it says is that you will be happy. Dont confuse the result of what is promised, with what you think will make you happy.

I was re-reading my original post and I wanted to clarify something. I don't really think Heaven would be a prison of course - if there is a Heaven. I don't believe it exists. I'm only saying that the concept doesn't really make sense and I'm illustrating that by applying some basic logic to the idea of having an eternal life is.

Since you dont believe, then you must be refering to the Heaven promised in the texts.

According to the texts, the issues raised will not exist. To accept 1 part of the text without the other is convenient.

You are trying to out logic a being who, by comparitive means, has a difference of evolution between you and him, as between you and an amoeba.

Can an amoeba second guess you?

This premise that you can second guess God on an equal level is the basic problem.

If God is everything purported, there isnt a human being who would have the skill to do what you are trying to do.

I'm not going to try to debate anything, but from the sound of it Man, you sound like you're assuming that in heaven, you sit around all day doing nothing but eating angelfood cake and contemplating your navel while saying hello to great Uncle Cedric who died in the freak blimp accident in 1927. In that case I would also wonder, "When would the reward become a punishment?"

That's assuming that's what the afterlife was all about...in my opinion, that's not it at all. I don't think we're supposed to stay there for very long...it serves no purpose. That's like working for 5 years and retiring for 50. (Sounds great at first, but after a while, it's boring - or so I would imagine.) I think (and I *have* been known to think from time to time) that we live many times...that's it's not a one shot deal. We live our lives...we die...we process what we've learned from our life on earth and we go back and learn some more. Between lives, we are in the "afterlife" not only do we process and share what we learn, but we can help the others we left behind...how many times have you said "I don't know *where* the idea came from...it just came to me in a flash" Is it inspiration or intervention?

Since my DH passed, I've spent a lot of time reading and thinking about what happens after we die...not that I'm an expert, but it gives me comfort sometimes...and I've come to believe that our purpose here is not to just be a flash in the pan...but to become more like God. (put down the flaming torches...let me finish) Perhaps God was lonely and wanted companionship....He creates man (in his own image) breathing life into him (passing along part of his soul/essence) but since man is but a child compared to the All Knowing, he must grow and experience all there is to know..no one can do that in a single lifetime. It takes many lives, many experiences to have that kind of wisdom.

Religion is and continues to be the art of inventing any explanation for life that one desires. It's a one-size-fits-all glove promising warm and happy fingers, no authentication required.

Isn't all that we do an invented explanation?

Can you prove to yourself that you aren't insane and have made up this entire life?

What if we are merely a figment of another's imagination? All of this world is made up, including our memories.

What if our memories are fake? Our past never existed.

How do you know what scientists tell you are correct? Have you done the research to prove the existance of quarks? Can you see a neutron split to form antimatter. Are you really able to explain why light is neither a wave nor a particle?

So much of life is taken on faith. Their is little true authentication except for what others tell us. As for God being authenticated - that is easy. Everyone will have that authenticated when they die.

There have been many things in history that at one time we accepted on faith without having science to confirm its presence.

Over time, we grew our tools and intelligence to make some discoveries of things that were already their.

Lack of authentication doesnt make something untrue, just not authenticated.

The position that you must have it proven to be true is obtuse. I dont mind discussion of these topics. But what is there to discuss when your fall back to that position when the discussion doesnt fit your means of understanding?

To me, religion is when many share the same beliefs which are presented by a few who act as interpreters for the word. This can easily get twisted into whatever political agenda is being pushed at the time. Thinking in terms, for example, of the different versions of the bible. One size fits all? I don't think so...otherwise there would only be one religion...there are so many with new ideologies cropping up daily and each one attracts followers because each one has something to offer those in need.

When speaking of an idea such as eternity, I believe that goes into the realm of Faith. You're right. We won't know what happens until we get there. But many believe that there is something more...and others think that we only get one chance to get it right. It's not wrong to believe in something....you yourself believe in something, even though it's nothingness...either way, it's something that drives you to be the best you can be...to want to leave your mark upon the world, with or without the promise of reward in the afterlife.

If you are Christian, there are two final destinations: heaven and hell. Endless paradise and beauty or endless torture and evil. Take your pick.

(Why do I think Jayhawk will post next, reminding me that Catholics believe in purgatory? Well, yes, but it's not a "final" destination.)

I follow more closely along Native beliefs and the concept of Universal Oneness.

I believe the universe is made up of energy. Everything, everyone is comprised in some form of energy.

Energy is never gone, it simply changes. We are interconnected, but upon death we realize this connection.

Some living people have learned to experience this connection and feel it, see it, experience it beforehand.

Two energies, light enegy and dark energy and depending on you , you go into one or the other, or travel betwixt them.

If one can achieve complete total relaxation one can, if so inclined, experience this other place before death. It take the fear out of death.

Owl

I think heaven, afterlife, reincarnation and so forth are necessary to keep people from living life in absolute fear.

Speaking from what we KNOW (not believe, hope, etc.) -- what do you remember before you were born? Not much. That's probably what you'll know when you'll die. Death is probably a dreamless sleep. Really thinking about it--that is scary as sh*t. And that's proabably why people believe in heaven, afterlife, reincarnation--it takes the fear out of the inevitable. I feel a lot better about loved ones I've lost when I think about them "looking over me" than I do if I think about them as having no existence whatsoever.

If someone asked me if I believed in God, I'd first ask them what they're talking about (people say "God", but ask them to describe God--lots of different responses). I don't know if there's a God or not. The evidence so far weighs in at no (notwithstanding people's beliefs to the contrary). I do hope there is a God, who can set some of these false prophet crazy bastards on fire (Dobson, Robertson, Bush).

I don't have any beef against people who do beleive in God, I do have a problem with them making up rules that I have to follow because of their beliefs.

So, long post short, I guess the best case scenario would be reincarnation -- no "eternity of boredom" -- every life feels new and unexperienced. Neither a dreamless sleep nor an eternity in "heaven", whatever that is (clouds?) is particularly appealing.

But, alas, there is not much I can do about whatever the after-life/after-death entails.

I remember reading once about a discovery made that basically said humans are 'programmed' for belief in religion. The exact term I can't seem to remember, but let's just say that in the human brain, there's a specific part that regulates a person's belief in something "greater" and that it functions somewhat as a safety net. When a person doesn't think about much at all it's dormant, but when they start foolishly pondering the meaning of their existence it starts to work, and everything that we come up with that doesn't make sense is regulated by that little part of the brain that tells us it must be a beast of unfathomable power doing it. I don't know if it's true or not but I heard it on some morning AM radio program and it was incredibly interesting. Even if it were true I suppose it could simply be God's way of instilling the belief in Him in us through biology, but that's a rather pointless conversation there since I can't remember the name of the source.

As for my personal opinion on the religion matter- it's my belief that religion in general, whether through biology (as mused about above) or personal need, is a safety system to keep immature humans from killing themselves upon realizing that someday they will simply cease to exist. What Spanks said is very true, when you come close to understanding the meaning behind "inexistence" you'll scare the hell out of yourself. I have no need for the satefy system though, because I understand that whether I cease to exist in the future or not is completely pointless to waste time arguing about (unless I'm bored like now). Life is about enjoying yourself. Sadly life isn't possible to live without a few chores here and there, but ultimately its about enjoying yourself and helping others to enjoy themselves. I don't believe the Ten Commandments were given by God but I do believe they're decent guidelines (made by an intelligent and honest human[s]) to follow, as humans, to maximize enjoyment all around and have a pleasant time on your short visit to Earth between inexistences. Whatever you choose to do, have fun doing it. Help others to have fun doing what they choose to do too and life will be pretty rewarding all around. As for the afterlife issue I think I've pretty much hit that one already; simple inexistence, no need for comprehension cuz it'll slam you in the face whether you want it to or not.

In school, we studied the Bible as a religious text in history class, not as the truth, but as a basis for European thought in the Middle Ages and then the reactions they would have in the Renaissance. So I can tell you with good confidence, since my teacher was amazing (private school), that there is no possible way to get bored of the Christian Heaven. The "point" is that you are in the prescence of God. You would not necessarily have a conception of family members, friends, enemies, nothing. Only God. This is why remarrying is not a problem since you would not be married in Heaven. The prescence of God is the ultimate reward since it is ultimate happiness. There is no possible way to get bored of ultimate happiness. Imagine the happiest moment of your life ever. Now imagine that feeling you got for your entire life. A lot of happiness right? Scrunch that up into a second. Amazing right? Not even close to what God would be, and that would be for eternity.

As for religion and science? First of all, from a logical standpoint, there is no evidence either way. It is inconclusive. Science can only take you so far. Science may take us as far as understanding how the Universe works, which it is a long way from, but it will never give us morals. That is where philosophy and religion comes in. Morals, ethics, how you live your life. Science can only give you causality.

Does it really matter if I hand that English assignment in? Or should I do better things with my limited time on Earth? Perhaps...

If there is no afterlife and just endless nothing-full foreverness, with no thought or anything ever again...that's frightening...and it's beyond our control.

I'm not really scared about the nothingness, just about the transistion from life to death...what is it like?

I agree with 'Spanks' although reincarnation seems far fetched. Every single person is most likely on a one way trip to nowhere...why else would they say 'It's all about the journey not the destination man'?

I find this true because even if you make the most of everyday you will eventually sooner or later to everything.

Once you do everything there is to do what do you do next, you'll tired of everything after you do it a few million times nomatter how fun it is.

that is why if the best afterlife I've ever heard is the reincarnation stuff.

first of all you cant have a etenral live. an eternety dosnt only meen that it havent got an end but allso it havent got a beginning. becous if something have a start it meens that it was something befor that. so even if there where a Heaven you couldnt have an etenar life becous somebody got there befor you. if not a man an angel would be befor you.

in lesser words. in order to live an infinite life in heaven you cant get there but you have to have been there all the time.

so if there is a heaven, god is the only one who could be infinite.

i think that if there would have been a heaven time wouldnt turn uot as it does here on earth in our mortal life. you would compare time to how long youve been there. or some thing like that. you would see generations pass as if i where days of a week.

The chances of me getting far with this are slim - I just turned 14 - But I'll have a go at it.

First of all, there was no beginning. It's hard to grasp, I know, but it is what it is. The thing is, humans can not comprehend where everything came from. We feel that everything MUST have a beginning, and an end.

But think about this: The Earth is round, right? Imagine a band around the circumference of the Earth. Where does it start?

We, as humans, find ways to answer this question. We might say something like "Simply pick any point on the line, it is both the beginning AND the end", and while that is partially true, it still doesn't answer my question. The band is just there. We don't know where it starts, and we don't know where it ends. It just is.

It's the same way with the universe; There can not be a beginning. In order for something to begin, something has to cause it. It doesn't matter how far you trace back, you'll never find the beginning. It's impossible.

I want to cover LOADS more than this, but I've already covered enough space =P So I'll just say a few more things.

Scientifically, you can't prove OR disprove the Creation Theory. There are, however, many things that support it, and none that don't. A week or two ago, I learned something interesting in my Science class that affected me quite differently than my peers. We learned about the theory scientists purpose created Earth's oceans.

The theory states that around 8 billion years ago, enough water vapor finally formed in the atmosphere to rain down on the Earth for the first time; This created oceans. This actually devastated and/or angered several of my peers.. But here's how I look at it; This supports the story of Noah. It had never rained before, but Noah obeyed God when he requested that build an ark. When it finally did rain, it rained a TON. Oceans worth, really.

It also angered some of my peers that they said the Earth was certainly over 8 billion years old. I am not at all discouraged by this either. In the bible, it says that the Lord created the universe over the course of 6 days. What people don't seem to realize, though, is that the classification of a Day that we use today wasn't actually created until.. 500 years ago.? I believe it's somewhere around there. Anywho. The word "Day" really just means an interval of time. In other words; The First Day could very well have been 10 billion years for all we know.

One LAST thing (I swear!). In The Holy Bible, it tells us that the eternity in Heaven will always be joyful. You can say to yourself, "Oh it would get boring after a while, though.", but as I've already said, what we generally believe is constant, often is not. It's sort of like when the teacher of a math based class tells us something that contradicts another thing we've learned a bit. I ask how this is what it is, and the answer is simple; "It just is". They know things that I don't, and the truth is, I just have to submit and accept that they are right. The same rule applies here.

Sorry if these rants don't seem knowledgeable, like I said, I'm only in the eighth grade :]

Thanks for the thoughts. We do in fact know the age of the universe and it can be proven. You'll learn a lot of this in science classes as you get older. The age of the universe is measured by astronomers and does have a beginning. Astronomers look at the universe through huge telescopes, some of which are land based, others like the Hubble Space Telescope are in orbit. The universe is full of many different kinds of stars and other objects. There are many different kinds of stars and many different sizes of stars. Some are much heavier than others, some much brighter and some rotate much slower or faster than others. The universe is very diverse! Some stars rotate at various speeds no matter where they are in the universe. Meanwhile, some galaxies are headed for us while others are heading away from us. By looking at various types of stars and studying the motions of stars and galaxies, scientists are able to measure distances, and eventually time. This is how and why we know the age of the universe. Here are a few facts for you:

The universe is roughly 14 billion years old. It did have a definite beginning and it's possible to measure exactly when. There are actually several ways that scientists measure the age of the universe. The reason we generally believe the universe is about 14 billion years old is because no matter what observation method you choose to measure the age of the universe, it always points to about the same age. Since more than one method point to the same number, scientists generally consider the question of the age of the universe as a proven number even if they still call it a theory.

Next lets discuss the age of the Earth. The Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old which means it came about 10 billion years after the beginning of the universe. It formed from debris left over after the formation of the sun. The sun and the earth are actually formed from a star that lived and died before the birth of the sun. The materials in the sun and the Earth were created inside of the older long dead star. We know this is true because heavy matter doesn't appear in naturally in the universe. Stars are hydrogen and helium. When they form, intense pressures cause these atoms to smash into each other and fuse together creating bigger and heavier atoms. This is the only place in the universe where heavier atoms like carbon, iron and gold are able to form. This observation has some pretty profound meanings. It means that at one point, everything on earth - including you - were once part of a star that lived and died long before the birth of our sun or the formation of our star system. You are quite literally, star stuff.

As for the formation of the oceans, they were formed by geological processes that lasted longer than a single rain storm. It wasn't a single even that created the oceans and they didn't look like they do today. The Earth is a solid crust with a liquid core. Basically, the solid land that you and I feel beneath our feet is actually floating on a huge, deep ocean of molten, liquid rock and metal. The rock and metal is so hot that it doesn't even dry into solid rock and metal we see on the surface. Instead it remains forever liquid because of the high temperatures and pressures below the surface. The continents rest on the crust, which is a fragmented and broken layer floating above the molten core. This is why continents move - they are floating - and this is also why earth quakes happen. The broken and fragmented crust we live on rubs up against itself causing the formation of things like volcanoes, mountains and other land features.

I would encourage you to have an open mind. Religious teaching is completely devoid of science, unfortunately. God did not create the world in 7 'days' (however you define days). I wish you the best of the luck with your future process of discovery.